{"id":240,"date":"2012-06-21T18:19:09","date_gmt":"2012-06-21T18:19:09","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/?p=240"},"modified":"2012-07-24T16:43:36","modified_gmt":"2012-07-24T16:43:36","slug":"karen-koenig","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/karen-koenig\/","title":{"rendered":"Emotional Eating Interview with Karen Koenig Author of &#8220;The Rules of &#8216;Normal&#8217; Eating&#8221;"},"content":{"rendered":"<!--powerpress_player--><div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_5225\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-240-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/emotionaleating.s3.amazonaws.com\/EE-blog-interview-Karen-R-Koenig-051012.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/emotionaleating.s3.amazonaws.com\/EE-blog-interview-Karen-R-Koenig-051012.mp3\">http:\/\/emotionaleating.s3.amazonaws.com\/EE-blog-interview-Karen-R-Koenig-051012.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/emotionaleating.s3.amazonaws.com\/EE-blog-interview-Karen-R-Koenig-051012.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=240-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/emotionaleating.s3.amazonaws.com\/EE-blog-interview-Karen-R-Koenig-051012.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"EE-blog-interview-Karen-R-Koenig-051012.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p>MORTY: Hello, Karen! How are you today?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I\u2019m fine. How are you?<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Great. Thank you so much for being willing to spend a few minutes with us. We\u2019ve got a bunch of listeners and people who are going to want to read this interview, who are interested in how to stop overeating. \u00a0They are interested in understanding better what has caused their emotional eating problem, what\u2019s involved in it, and perhaps some new ideas on what to do about it.<\/p>\n<p>Why don\u2019t you tell us a little bit about your background, what makes you an expert in this area, and what you think you might be able to offer to our readers.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I\u2019m an expert both professionally and personally. I have a Master\u2019s in Education, and I have a Master\u2019s in Social Work, and I have been what I consider an expert on the psychology of eating, which is the how and the why, not the what, for more than 30 years.<\/p>\n<p>Personally, I am a former chronic dieter, and what I consider a world-class binge eater, certainly an emotional eater, and I have been a relatively normal eater since the 1980s.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I use my expertise that I learned educationally, and I use what has worked for me, and readings in the field to help people learn how to stop overeating.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Okay. It sounds like an interesting background with some personal and professional expertise on it. Did you have an institute, a clinic, or are you a private therapist? How do you help people?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I\u2019m the author of four books on eating and weight. I can certainly talk about those.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Would you please name your books, so that people can possibly check them out if they\u2019d like to?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Sure. These are in the order that they\u2019re written. The Rules of Normal Eating is my first book, and that gives basic guidelines to connect to appetite, hunger, food preference, satisfaction, and fullness.<\/p>\n<p>My second book is the Food and Feelings Workbook, which deals specifically with emotional eating and lays out what emotions are for, why do we have them, how can we use them, and how can we stop eating and connect with feelings, so that we have a better life.<\/p>\n<p>My third book is What Every Therapist Needs to Know about Treating Eating and Weight Issues. It is for non-eating-disorder therapists, general therapists who have clients with eating and weight problems.<\/p>\n<p>My fourth book is Nice Girls Finish Fat &#8211; Put Yourself First and Change Your Eating Forever. That is for all the women out there who take care of everybody else with their warm feeling and kindness and loving hearts and then, as I describe it, take care of themselves through multiple trips to the refrigerator.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: I got it. Okay, well, thank you. You\u2019ve got a lot of material that we could take a look at. Let\u2019s just start. I have called the problem emotional eating, and I\u2019ve had a lot of therapists and other authors disagree and call it other things, such as compulsive eating or addiction, etc.<\/p>\n<p>I call it emotional eating because it seems that the, although there are obviously differences with different people, the main source of the problem is that people have negative feelings\u2014anything from boredom to feeling unlovable to anxiety to anger, etc. They use eating as a way to keep down, to get rid of, to cope with these negative feelings. I call it emotional eating because they\u2019re compulsively driven to eat by their emotions.<\/p>\n<p>Do you see it that way? Or, if not, how do you see the issue of compulsive overeating?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I also call it emotional eating. I do differentiate between what I would call compulsive eating, you\u2019re watching a basketball game, and your hands are in the chips, and you just keep feeding yourself. I think that\u2019s when we sometimes just get out of touch with our appetite. I would call that compulsive eating. I think there can be a problem.<\/p>\n<p>However, emotional eating has this specific intent to avoid or lessen internal distress through food. I think, as well, that people have bad habits that you can call it non-hunger eating. You could call it \u201ccued eating.\u201d A client was telling me she\u2019s been really enjoying food, eating healthfully, and then there were five cookies leftover in the teacher\u2019s room, and she just ate them all. I think that was just mindless.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: You don\u2019t think there was an emotional reason? You just think that this was almost like accidental that it wasn\u2019t being driven by some emotion that she wasn\u2019t aware of?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I don\u2019t think in that particular moment that it was an emotional response. I think it just wasn\u2019t thinking because for decades she has gone to the teacher\u2019s room, and sort of \u201cHoovered\u201d all the food that\u2019s left on the table. I think in that case.<\/p>\n<p>But, I do believe that most of the unwanted or troubled eating that goes on is emotional eating as you had described.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: How would you then describe from your point of view, the basic source of the problem, or how do you think the problem develops?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Well, I think it develops when we are first held by a nurturing person, and we are fed and we feel contained and secure and comfortable and comforted. That makes the connection between food and feeling. Mother\u2019s milk gets us drowsy. Carbohydrate, sugars, and fat do something similar. There is a natural relaxation response from certain foods.<\/p>\n<p>We have a biological &#8212; most of us, not all of us&#8211; tendency to get that reaction from food; it changes our brain chemistry.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: If it\u2019s something that everybody starts with, if the source of it is breast milk from a mother and how we respond initially, then, how come only half the people, or perhaps even less than that, end up with an emotional eating problem? If the source of it is something that\u2019s common to everybody, then what else is there for people who ultimately develop the problem, and those who don\u2019t? What distinguishes them?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Okay, that\u2019s a great question. I would speak to two fronts. One is that we are not all born with the same complement of neural transmitters that are mood regulators. Some people have a more high-strung or sensitive temperament from their genetics, and not having enough self-soothing neurotransmitters. They\u2019re more likely to go to food.<\/p>\n<p>Other people have a deficit of life skills, or self-soothing, or self-stimulation, whatever it is that food happens to do for those people.<\/p>\n<p>Unfortunately, many people have both. They have the genetic propensity to be unable to self-soothe, relax, or stimulate with themselves, and they didn\u2019t learn the life skills. That\u2019s what I call a \u201cdouble whammy.\u201d \u00a0Those are the people for whom it is really hardest to overcome emotional eating.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: What do you do when somebody calls you up? You\u2019re basically a private therapist working with individuals. Somebody calls you up and says, \u201cI find that I can\u2019t stop eating. I need help.\u201d Basically, what is unique about what you do to help people overcome the problem of emotional eating?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I work in several areas. One is I\u2019m very interested in their beliefs about food, eating, emotions. We do a lot of identifying irrational beliefs, and how do you change them to rational beliefs? In that sense, I do a lot of cognitive behavioral work.<\/p>\n<p>I help them build up life skills, how to say no, setting boundaries, problem solving, critical thinking skills, learning how to play, and relax, and let go, how to find passion and engage in life. Because when you can do these things effectively, you don\u2019t want to turn to food. You just don\u2019t think of it. I work on the life skills front.<\/p>\n<p>One last front that I work on is I find many of my clients have mixed unconscious feelings about becoming a normal eater. It may be part of their identity. \u00a0An eating problem may be a way to say, \u201cLook how I\u2019ve suffered in life.\u201d They may have mixed feelings about how hard they want to work on this, and just want it to be resolved quickly.<\/p>\n<p>I work on the issues, the unconscious mixed feelings that they have. The major one I find is rebelling, that people will say, \u201cI know what I should do, and then that little voice says to me, \u2018Oh, eat the cookie. No big deal\u2019, it\u2019s telling you what to do. \u201c<\/p>\n<p>I call this section the boomerang effect\u2014when we are told to do things over and over, we do two things, we tune out the information and then, we also rebel against it. I work a lot with clients on this whole idea of rebelling.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Yes. I have found that a specific belief, people who feel powerless as one of their beliefs, I am powerless, then have the belief the way to be in control is to do what I want, when I want regardless of what I should or shouldn\u2019t do, or regardless of what anybody wants me to do, or regardless of even what\u2019s good for me. \u00a0Basically, by eating what you want when you want regardless of what makes sense, it gives you a sense of power and being in control what you don\u2019t experience most of the time. I find that what you\u2019re describing as that rebellion is actually the result of a specific belief.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Yes. The belief is the result of whatever happened to people in childhood. Their sense of self was annihilated because they had very controlling, domineering parents. They\u2019re going to want that part, sometimes called the wild child or just the self, to come out, and they do battle between that and the \u201cshould\u201d and the \u201cshouldn\u2019ts.\u201d I try to help them develop a nurturing self, which only has one goal, and that is to do what is in the best interest of the person. And&#8211;<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: And \u2026 I\u2019m sorry, go ahead. Keep going. I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I was just going to say, and by developing that, this whole ping pong between I should, I shouldn\u2019t, or rebelling, that whole ping pong match gets tossed out and you\u2019re just focusing on what can I do now that is going to be best for myself.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Your main technique is, you say, is cognitive behavioral therapy. That\u2019s your main approach in working with these people?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: It\u2019s a big part of it. Another approach that I use is trauma resolution that really has to do with people understanding, because there\u2019s such a high correlation between eating problems, and trauma. It\u2019s helping them understand them, when they have really intense feeling that they are generally from recall, not reality. Once they understand that, then the drive to eat lessens.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Would you like me to explain that a little more?<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Sure yes.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Okay.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: \u00a0I\u2019m not sure that I understand what you mean.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Okay. Let\u2019s say that your father was alcoholic and came home, and you were scared the minute you heard him come in the house, and just the sounds of his feet on the stairs frightened you and then, he walks in the room, and somehow you got hurt.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re in a situation where perhaps you\u2019re waiting for someone, and you\u2019re not knowing how they\u2019re going to react when you see them, maybe you\u2019re just in a job interview, and you hear that person coming up the stairs slowly, about to open the door to meet with you. You might have intense fear feelings, but it\u2019s not because of the person who is going to interview you. \u00a0It\u2019s because you\u2019re stuck in recall. That\u2019s what you\u2019re reacting to.<\/p>\n<p>I help people identify what\u2019s stored in there, and what\u2019s recall, and what\u2019s reality. Once they\u2019re in reality, they do much better managing them.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Yes. I see that as conditioning, and we have a specific process to work on that. For me, the two major changes you\u2019ve actually talked about are the same we work on, namely beliefs and conditioning. \u00a0I found about twenty triggers that when those triggers come up, as I say, which are mainly negative feelings, when they come up, you just find yourself eating because that is the way you\u2019ve conditioned yourself to deal with those negative feelings.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Yes, absolutely. It is a form of conditioning. I\u2019ve been saying to clients, \u201cYou know we\u2019re all rats at heart.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: We really are.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: \u00a0We respond to rewards and punishment.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: What would you say, do you have any sense to any follow up, not necessarily formal research on some informal basis, do you have any sense of what the effectiveness is, the recovery rate?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I couldn\u2019t give you numbers, but I will say that it is a long process, and that the people who stick with it, which are, I don\u2019t know, many of clients do make changes in their eating, and in their lives.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Do you follow up six months later to see, or do you have them call you? Or, do you have any?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I do not.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: I don\u2019t mean necessarily on a formal basis, but just for your own satisfaction to know how it\u2019s going or you just basically, when you\u2019re done, they seem to be in good shape, and you assume they\u2019ll call you back if they still need you, and if they don\u2019t, you assume all is well?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Yes, to the latter. I don\u2019t do for any formal or informal follow up. I do, it\u2019s interesting, I run a Yahoo Food and Feelings message board. A good number of the people have been on it for a number of years, and so I can track their progress that way.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Uh-huh, okay.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: That has been very interesting to see people who came on the board with no skills, and no clue how to stop emotional eating. Now, having resolved a lot of their issues, they are now helping new members on the board.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: That\u2019s great. You said a moment ago, you said, if they stay with it, how long a process, I was talking with someone the other day who said, she has four 90-minute sessions, and that seems to handle the psychological element, and she has some nutritional and other kinds of work. How many sessions would you say, for the average person again, I know that everybody is very different and there\u2019s a wide range, but roughly, what would the range be? If they stayed as long as you thought they needed to really get over the problem so that it\u2019s gone, how long would you say your average client needs to stay?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: I don\u2019t think in terms of sessions because I start off maybe with two or three weekly sessions, and I do mostly telephone and Skype for calling all over the world. I have a small private practice in here in Sarasota. \u00a0After that, people go to every two weeks, three weeks. For me, it\u2019s not the number of sessions, but I would say from many months to a few years. Now, that doesn\u2019t mean they need to be working with me that whole time.<\/p>\n<p>I give people a treatment plan after the first session, and once they understand what the work is, some of it they do on their own. But, for me, it certainly was not a quick process. It was a thorough process, an organic process of changing, and not everything starts at the same place.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m thinking it takes quite a while for people to really be what they want to be, which is normal eaters, or relatively normal eaters.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Where can people get some more information? Obviously, you\u2019ve stated the names of your four books, but what website can people go to, to get more information about you and what you have to offer?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: The main website is http:\/\/www.eatingnormal.com.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: http:\/\/Eatingnormal.com.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Yes. They can go to http:\/\/nicegirlsfinishfat.com, and I write eating blogs that you can find at http:\/\/bulimia.com. They can access my twice-weekly blogs, and if they go to Yahoo, and put in Food and Feelings message board, they can come up with my message board. I also have a free Facebook app on Emotional Eating, as it happens. If they put in Appetite Facebook app, they should be able to get it.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: \u00a0We have a lot of ways to find you Karen.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Yes, anyway.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Thank you so, so much. I so appreciate your time today. This is Karen, do you pronounce it Koenig?<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Koenig is fine.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Yes, Karen Koenig, thank you so much for your time. I\u2019m sure that my readers and listeners will be fascinated with your particular approach, your particular way of thinking about the problem of emotional eating. I\u2019m sure that some of them will check out your books, or possibly get in touch with your directly.<\/p>\n<p>Have a great day, and I look forward to talking to you at some point again soon.<\/p>\n<p>KAREN: Okay, thank you so much, Morty! Bye.<\/p>\n<p>MORTY: Bye.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>http:\/\/emotionaleating.s3.amazonaws.com\/EE-blog-interview-Karen-R-Koenig-051012.mp3Podcast: Play in new window | DownloadMORTY: Hello, Karen! How are you today? KAREN: I\u2019m fine. How are you? MORTY: Great. Thank you so much for being willing to spend a few minutes with us. We\u2019ve got a bunch of listeners and people who are going to want to read this interview, who are interested &hellip; <a href=\"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/karen-koenig\/\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;Emotional Eating Interview with Karen Koenig Author of &#8220;The Rules of &#8216;Normal&#8217; Eating&#8221;&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/240"}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=240"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/240\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":243,"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/240\/revisions\/243"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=240"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=240"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/emotionaleatingreport.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=240"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}